Inspired by the newspaper in Westchester County, NY, which published the names and addresses of individuals who had a gun license, we decided to see if we could do the same sort of public service for Orange County. We initially submitted our public records request for the names and cities of Carry Concealed Weapons (CCW) permit holders in Orange County. We planned to post the information as a public service. Then, after we got the list pf those in Orange County who have a CCW (names, not addresses), we thought about it more and took a slightly different direction.
We learned from the response form the Orange County Sheriff’s Department that in 2010, 354 CCW permits were issued and 25 were denied, in 2011, 451 were issued and 29 were denied, and in 2012, 409 were issued and 57 were denied. Licenses may be denied for lack of good cause, past criminal history or for not being an Orange County resident. These numbers reveal that a rather insignificant number of people, 0.013%, hold CCW permits issued in Orange County. We also wanted to expand our records request to include everyone who owns a gun license or permit in Orange County, but this was going to create a huge workload for the county and our time and limited resources mean we wouldn’t be able to adequately present this information to our readers.
We think there are too many guns out there. The overflowing crowds at this weekend’s gun show in Costa Mesa show Orange County’s appetite for automatic weapons is near insatiable. We find it fascinating that the same people, the Tea Party Patriots, who so demanded President Obama’s birth certificate, find inquiries into background checks and licenses for firearms an invasion of privacy. And while gun ownership is a right, so is the right NOT to own one. When liberals state healthcare should be a right, we’re scoffed at by Libertarians and Conservatives who cling to their guns but fail to acknowledge getting sick is not a choice.
Based upon this information we presume that there are probably good reasons for all of the permit holders to have their permits. As a result of our request we learned that the OC Sheriff’s department declines to match the city of residence to the license holder because they believe that the public disclosure of this information would make it easier for a person to locate the home of a license holder and thus may endanger the personal safety of the license holder and his or her family.
Assemblyman Allan Mansoor has introduced AB 134 to prevent the disclosure of the home addresses and cities of residence of gun permit holders to the public. Current law allows Sheriff’s to decline to disclose this information, but does not require it. Our Sheriff seems to be as careful about such disclosures as Assemblyman Mansoor’s bill proposes. We will be interested to learn if the Assemblyman has any examples of disclosures that warrant such a law. Or will this be just another case of a Republican legislator imagining a problem and then writing a law to prevent it in order to score quick political points.
But back to the issue at hand, what do we do with this information we have obtained through our public records request? Former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said that “Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do.” We agree with that definition of ethics and determined there would be little to no public benefit in the wholesale publishing of the list of current CCW permit holders. However, we do believe that public figures, both elected and non-elected, do not warrant the same level of ethical discretion the majority of those on the list do.
To this end, here are a few of the names of Orange County CCW permit holders who are also public figures. Since the list is just first and last name there is a limit to our certainty that the names listed are indeed the identified public figures. The list we received also defined some of the sort of weapons covered on the CCW.
Todd Spitzer — We believe that this is probably Supervisor Todd Spitzer. This individual has two licensed handguns attached to their permit.
Robert Nelson — We believe the this is likely Supervisor Robert Shawn Nelson. This individual has two licensed handguns attached to their permit.
David Shawver — We believe that this is likely Stanton City Councilman David Shawver. This individual has two licensed handguns attached to their permit.
Dean Grose — We believe that this is likely Los Alamitos Councilman Dean Grose. We wrote about him on Saturday calling for posting on Facebook Saturday, “Uniting America against Obama’s regieme one AK47 at a time!” This individual has two licensed handguns attached to their permit.
Tri Ta — We believe that this is likely Westminster Mayor Tri Ta. This individual has one licensed handgun attached to their permit.
Deborah Pauly — We believe this is likely Villa Park Councilwoman Deborah Pauly. This individual has one licensed handgun attached to their permit.
Dan Harkey — We believe this is likely the husband of Assemblywoman Diane Harkey. Dan Harkey is currently being sued by investors in his company Point Center Financial Inc. over failed investments. This individual has three licensed handguns attached to their permit.
John Fleischman — We believe that this is likely the John Fleischman who is owner of the Flash Report, a conservative political blog who sometimes goes by Jon Fleischman. The disclosure from the Sheriff did not indicate the number of handguns attached to this permit.
Michael Schroeder — We believe that this is likely the same Mike Schroeder who is the former Chair of the California Republican Party, and currently married to OC District Attorney Chief of Staff Susan Kang-Schroeder (though the Voice of OC reported that the couple plan to divorce). Mr. Schroeder recently plead guilty to a DUI. We wonder whether he was carrying one of the three licensed handguns attached to his permit at the time of his arrest?
These are the names we were able to identify as public figures. It is possible that we may have missed a few. Again, we trust that Sheriff Hutchens has concluded that these individuals have the need, and good judgment, necessary to carry concealed firearms. Her policy of careful review is a 180 degree turn from corrupt ex-Sheriff and current federal prisoner Mike Carona who gave out CCWs like party favors to political contributors, all without criticism from the OC GOP who turn a blind eye at corruption in their own party.
The U.S. Supreme Court said in a 2008 case District of Columbia vs Heller, that “Like most rights, the second amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”
If we use the argument second amendment proponents use that crimes are prevented by bad guys being aware that the good guys have guns, then the argument should hold that publishing the names and addresses of all gun owners in Orange County and making this information easy to access online would be a major crime deterrent. Wouldn’t it?
Theres some scary people on that very short list.
I agree, Senator Feinstein is a very scary person and has a Carry Concealed Weapons permit, CCW.
“Second Amendment Hypocrites: Senators Schumer and Feinstein Pack Heat”
http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=10104
The list is huge. If oyu have a CCW in OC, your name is a public record.
Dan, do you have the OC Web site URL for the permit list? I am interested in checking it out. I could see no justification for any of the people listed in the article to have a permit. Guess the Sheriffs restrictions are not as tight as we thought, unlees of course you happen to be a politican?
This was a public records request filing.
what justification would you need?
So by your logic of publishing the names and addresses of gun owners, you would be happy with criminals knowing you are not armed and are a safer target for criminal activity than your armed neighbor?
Not sure I get that, but, your call. Post your home address and let the criminals know you are not armed. That is just one less bit of research some criminal needs to do.
Simply because you are not holding a CCW does not mean you are unarmed. It just means you don’t have a permit to carry it. However, it is a bit disconcerting that the “editorial staff” would even consider the responsible thing to do would be to publish anyone’s name who has a CCW. By doing so, they have just advertised that each of the above named folks have firearms and it may be worth burglarizing their home for the guns.
Even moreso just harming the individual abruptly to steal the weapon you now know they carry..
First, it is asinine to equate the right to own firearms to the “right” to healthcare. Show me where, in the US Constitution there is a Constitutional right to healthcare? And, please don’t quote the purusit of happiness, etc. That doesn’t fly as it does not enumerate healthcare. There has never been a court case, to my knowledge, that even addresses the issue.
OTOH, the right to keep and bear arms has been tested and proven, by the highest court in the land, that it is an individual right, not just a state’s right to “keep” a militia armed and ready. That would be the Heller decision that you quoted, later addressed for the individual states by the McDonald Decision.
So, here we find that we have approximately 409 persons living or working in the county who possess a CCW permit. Add to that another thousand or so off duty peace officers and another thousand or so retired peace officers, all of whom are authorized by law to carry a firearm. In all, there are about 45,000 CCWs authorized by various entities throughout the state of California and probably another 100,000 or so that are further authorized by law. Still a paltry number in comparison to a population of 38 million.
Why don’t we address the real culprit, mental illness. Because, one thing I noticed while perusing the VPC records is the high number of mentally ill people that should not have been allowed to possess a firearm at all, much less obtain a CCW permit.
“Why don’t we address the real culprit, mental illness?”
I agree.
“Psych Meds Linked to 90% of School Shootings”
http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/psych-meds-linked-to-90-of-school-shootings/
Also:
It’s time for Congress to take on the Violent Video-Game Loby.
1)Virginia Tech Killer Was Another Video-Game Fanatic
by Michele Steinberg and Anton Chaitkin
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2007/3417va_tech_videos.html
1a) Time To Take On the Violent Videogames Lobby
by Lyndon H.LaRouche, Jr.
April 18, 2007 (EIRNS)—This statement was released today by the Lyndon LaRouche Political Action Committee.
http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2007/lar_pac/070418videogames.html
1b) Violent Video Games Are Mass-Murder Simulators
by Lt. Col. David Grossman
Lt. Col. David Grossman is the author of Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill: A Call To Action Against TV, Movie & Video Game Violence, which he co-authored with Gloria DeGaetano, and On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. The following is his speech to the founding meeting of the Commission Against the New Violence, on May 20, 2000. It is reprinted from EIR, June 2, 2000.
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2007/3417grossman_reprint.html
Jeff —
Thanks for your comments; very thoughtful
One thing I appreciate about The LibOC is your willingness to have a community discussion. You and I will never agree completely on gun control issues but we can share a healthy debate, thanks to another great piece of the Constitution.
“.. Orange County’s appetite for automatic weapons is near insatiable.”
Not so – automatic weapons are not legal.
“.. Tea Party Patriots .. find inquiries into background checks and licenses for firearms an invasion of privacy.”
Not really .. you can ask all you want about those things – it’s what you would do with the information that is either responsible or irresponsible.
What we do care about is that you know what you talk about and you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to guns. If you want to regulate them – you need to understand about them before you go spouting off.
shall I edit thsi to say “semi-automatic” does that mean the gun is somehow less dangerous?
For the purposes of this article about gun control, Gun shows and CCW holders in Orange County, the difference between semi-automatic and automatic firearms are important. To answer your question, yes, semi-automatic firearms are very different than automatic firearms, and would be deemed less dangerous by most people.
Semi-Automatic = 1 trigger pull, 1 bullet. An example of this are Double Action Revolvers, AR-15s, etc. These are legal within the United States.
Automatic Firearm = Hold down trigger, multiple bullets. An example of this
are real assault rifles like the M16s and AK47s. All true automatic weapons are already illegal within the United States.
Actually, yes it does. Automatic weapons have no business outside a battlefield. That includes, by the way, the police, who have no business with such weapons except to assist government in subjugating its citizens.
Another example of your lack of knowledge concerning guns:
“.. publishing the names and addresses of all gun owners in Orange County and making this information easy to access online would be a major crime deterrent. Wouldn’t it?”
It is not possible to know that information – no one has that information – and that is the way it is intended acoording to the purposes of the 2nd amendment.
How so junior? Where does the 2nd Amendment state that CCW holders have a right to their identities being shielded from public view?
Junior you’re a tea party freak?
Jose, you’re a socialist?
no I am a conservative republican – however, I align closely with many tea party ideals. like another amnesty will undoubtedly lead to more illegal immigrantion
jose, there are no “Tea Party” freaks. The only freaks roaming the streets are those dancing along in the conga line behind the Pied Piper of Chicago. As a a bit of free advice, you might want to check out the original story of the Piper and see what happened to the children of Hamlin Town? We won’t miss you.
The Pied Piper of Chicago? The one who smoked Mitt Romney after being outspent and lied about…keep believing that storyline Pat. Democrats have won the popular vote for president in five of the past six elections.
No i’m a beaner.
I’m not really sure how publishing these names is any different than publishing the names of police officers. We can all assume police officers carry guns too right?
Ideals? I didnt know the tea party had ideals other than to be scared and white. And junior im with you on this amnesty thing i mean those crazy wetbacks end up registering to vote buy property and guns to boot. Who the hell do they think they are!?
Yea, juse you are probably one of those nim wits who want to cede California back to Mexico? Actually, the state is so poorly run Mexico would likely turn down your offer.
Move. Don’t let the door kick you in the butt on the way out. Take yoru Tea Party friends with you. Montana is lovely this time of year
Actually Dan, I was thinking more in terms of Colorado. I might even resort to becoming a gentleman farmer, raise the killer weed now legal there and become wealthy. If you can’t beat em, join them, someone once said. Don’t think I will ever become a Democrat though no matter how bad things get?
Lptar, congo line? Like from the congo? Oh i get, obama is black like those other folks from the congo who are also black got it! Sorry i dont dance. And i would never give cali back to mexico when i can keep it for myself.
he wrote conga….not everything is about race
Regardless of one’s feelings on guns, Jeff Gallagher’s point that we have a big unsolved problem in meeting the mental health needs of our citizens is not only true, it impacts us across a wide number of other social issues. It is not a field well suited to glib one-liners as gun control efforts may be. Nor is it an area where one can rapidly score political points. But it seems to me that, much like success in education, each time we can prevent mental illness or aid in recovery of mental health, our community benefits in many ways – lower crime, lower health costs, higher employment and resulting tax revenues, perhaps reduced incidents of drunk driving, the list goes on. Unfortunately, the “how to do this” is more complicated than education, or perhaps most other problems. But we have to start figuring it out sometime.
Is not Todd Spitzer both a former prosecutor AND a former active reserve police officer, thus well trained in the use of a firearm? Given this, it is certainly not unreasonable for him to request and the sheriff to approve a CCW permit. Both a reasonable motive AND effective training are present in his case.
Which raises the question – what training is offered to or required of CCW permit holders? As this article makes clear, using a weapon effectively requires more than just accuracy at the shooting range: http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/16/your-brain-in-a-shootout-guns-fear-and-flawed-instincts/
Todd may be well-versed in the use of firearms but that is not supposed to be a good enough reason to obtain a CCW. It is obvious that, if you are a celebrity or a well-known politician, you will easily be able to obtain a CCW without necessarily having good cause that the sheriff, at least in this county, would require of Joe Blow Citizen.
CCW holders are actually required to go through 16 hours of training including a full day on the course. qualification is less than that of a peace officer but you must qualify with the specific weapon(s) you will carry.
Maybe being a prosecutor would be a good reason, you know, because there might be people he’s prosecuted who want revenge.
Look, I feel like everyone has a right to their opinion, and I just happened to stumble apon this article online purely out of mistake. You people obviously hold the opinion that guns are mean and bad, noone “needs them”, and if we just get rid of all of them, then everyone will be safe and we can all hug around a camp fire on the beach and gaze into each others loving eyes and everything will be wonderful. Your views are not statistically correct, do some research and if youre going to call yourself a journalist, do some research and educate yourself in order to back up your opinion instead of polluting everyones minds with misinformation for instance, “automatic weapons” are NOT legal, nor are they sold at gun shows, and there is nothing special about “semi automatics” either, so quit trying to demonize the word, majority of guns are semi-automatic (i trigger pull = 1 bullet fired) You know nothing about weapons/guns, if you did, and could hold a reasonable and educated argument, i would have no problem respecting your opinion. And what exactly are you trying to accomplish with trying to list CCW holders? Again, if you were at all educated on the situation, then you would know that CCW holders are only people that have applied to carry a concealed weapon legally, and not to mention it is a lengthy process to get approved if approved. CCW holders a very SMALL number of people that would like to carry a pistol concealed (hidden). So not only did the person have to go through a back ground check and waiting period to purchase the pistol, they took another step to get a CCW, which just to find out if you are approved and can continue the process of the required training ect in order to get the actual permit takes several months, i know someone that it took 9 months to get the permit. BTW, you cant conceal a big scary AR 15 either. So, what are you getting out of this, what purpose does it serve to try to display this list to your 5 readers? Now, all you did was disclose names of CCW permit holders, there is probably hundreds of thousands of people that own legal guns, in so cal, and have not applied for a CCW. And do you realize that if you were able to get the names and addresses of ALL gun owners in OC and publish that list on your website, all youre doin is telling criminals who DOES NOT own guns, and who the easier target is. Real smart. Haha. If you stand so strong on your anti gun belief, why dont you create lawn signs that say “anti gun supporter, Im not armed” and get all your readers to follow you in placing these signs on your front lawns. If you are a strong believer of anti gun policy, then you should have no problem doing this. Educate yourself so you can have a actual intelligent debate and/or opinion.
I am a USMC combat wounded veteran, I took an oath to defend this country and the constitution. I defended your right to speak your mind, wether you know what you are talking about or not. Leave my right to keep and bare arms alone!
Respectfully and Sincerely,
OC Veteran
Great short video…
http://youtu.be/YTct7OB_n78
Because of lawful CCW permit holders, maybe one day your life could be potentially save by the very people that you demonize…The lawful gun owners in America. These are the incidents that are never shared by the main stream media and inadequate journalists in this country. Look up the statistics of crimes stopped and lives saved by lawful gun owners in this country. Your column would serve better justice if you listed people that owned firearms illegally….oh wait those guys arent on a list anywhere…thats right, they are criminals and dont buy legal guns.
First off, you Sir/Ma’am are an idiot for writing the following:
“appetite for automatic weapons” You will find 0/zero “automatic weapons” sold at the gun show in Costa Mesa because those are no longer legal to be transferred or manufactured by your average citizen. Maybe you should have done some more research before being so ignorant unless you are purposefully lying to get your point across.
And second, I completely agree with the following:
“publishing the names and addresses of all gun owners in Orange County and making this information easy to access online”
… As long as we put the following sign in front of homes with no firearms: “This Is a Gun Free House”. Then I’ll gladly compare the crime pattern/stats with you afterward…
wow. Your whole article shows ignorance especially at the point where you said everyone in Orange County was at the gun show buying “automatic weapons” which are ILLEGAL in CA and illegal for private ownership since 1986. And since you dont even know the simple state and federal laws just shows how ignorant you are on the topic of firearms. The worst part is you call this “journalism” when you cant even get the most simple facts strait. Funny how CA, NY, DC, and Chicago have the strictest gun laws and the HIGHEST CRIME RATE. The department of justice has stated that gun laws have NO EFFECT on violent crime. You are entitled to say whatever you want per 1st amendment but atleast do SOME research next time..
You truly are ignorant, excuse me “likely to be”. No wonder no one has heard of this pile of shit reporting you do.. damn google and their searches
Funnies part about the whole story..
You little bitches wont even name the author…