When is a joke not a joke?
As we pointed out in an earlier post, Christian Berthelsen political reporter for the LA Times related in an article on Thursday comments made by Republican Santa Ana City Councilman Carlos Bustamante regarding the appointment of Sandra Hutchens as the new OC Sheriff. Apparently, Bustamante walks up to a prominent conservative blogger and says “I kept telling the Chief (Walters) maybe we should get you some implants, or a water bra.”
Where do I begin?
First, this is a highly offensive and sexist comment. It is derogatory towards Chief Hutchens in that it implies that the ONLY REASON she received the appointment as Sheriff is because of her gender. It is derogatory towards women in general and the millions of women who have risen to great levels of accomplishment based upon their own merits, hard work, and skill in their professions.
Second, this comment is offensive to the residents of the City of Santa Ana, in particular Ward 3, who have the distinct pleasure of being represented on the City Council by the “Honorable” Mr. Bustamante. To be represented by someone who has the audacity to make such comments in a public setting, and who lacks the judgment necessary to prevent himself from making them at all, is beyond intolerable.
Third, Bustamante’s comments are offensive to his employer, the County of Orange Public Works department. Bustamante, is the Director of Administration for OC Public Works. In his role as an executive manager, he supervises the Human Resources Department for that agency. One of his responsibilities is to uphold the County Equal Employment Opportunity Ordinance which states: The County of Orange will not tolerate harassing conduct that creates an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment.
Fourth, Bustamante’s comments are reflective of the good old boy attitudes prevalent among many executive and senior managers in the county. There is a culture of denial that has grown within the ranks of county executive management. The culture is one that makes it clear; “there are no consequences your actions; anything goes.” Whenever something goes wrong under an executive manager’s watch, the response is to simply point the finger down the chain of command. Usually, the fingers stop pointing once they get to low-level managers, supervisors or line staff. The “little guys or gals” always take the fall.
CEO Tom Mauk is currently on vacation, which explains why the LiberalOC’s request for comment from the CEO’s office went unanswered today. We wanted to know if Carlos Bustamante’s remarks were consistent with county policy regarding equal employment opportunities for women and if such comments would be tolerated coming from a senior executive in the workplace?
Mr. Bustamante was in the Board Hearing Room Tuesday morning by virtue of his position as an executive manager for OC Public Works and was arguably there on County time when he made his comments. So I have an additional question that only the CEO can answer. Since Bustamante made his comments while in his professional capacity as a county manager, what will Tom Mauk do about it? Will he demonstrate tolerance for such behavior? Will he uphold the standards that prohibit such conduct, or will he perpetuate the culture of denial, accept such deplorable behavior, and give Bustamante a pass? Now I would love to be proven wrong, but I doubt it anything will happen.
One additional and final point. Carlos Bustamante is a member of the Santa Ana City Council. With his title comes the prefix “Honorable.” What is honorable about his statement on Tuesday? Will the Council demand an apology from Mr. Bustamante? Will they introduce a resolution for censure? Or will the City Council give Carlos a pass?
Bustamante is as dunderheaded a councilmember as I’ve come across in my years. Probably the only person stupider is Westminster Mayor Margie Rice.
What’s even worse is denying he said it after an LA Times reporter clearly heard him say it.
Still waiting for the conservative blogger to denounce the comment (joke).
His Bio says he was recently appointed to the Department of Fair Housing and Employment by the Gov.
Tasteless comment or free speech? or both?
Keep waiting, Chris.
It was joke. Off-color at best, but it accurately reflected what the tipping point was for Hutchens being picked.
I’d like to know which of the stone-throwers present are without sin in this area?
The LA Times article implies Carlos made the comment at the Board meeting. That isn’t true. This is what happened:
I was talking to Christian Berthelsen in the Hall of Administration lobby, next to the entrance from the court yard area. It was during the break after the Board appointed Hutchens.
Christian and I were discussing the vote. At that point, Carlos walked into the building. he annd I shook hands and commiserated about the vote. I told Carlos that I was explaining to Christian why I thought it was, ultimately, a gender-driven appointment. That’s when Carlos made the comment, at which I chuckled because I a) thought it was funny and b) that it was on point.
Carlos wasn’t in a work capacity or harassing anyone or creating a hostile anything for anyone, so why don’t you guys put down your pitchforks.
Everyone-
FYI, I contacted the County CEO’s office yesterday to ask what our county government thinks of this employee’s comment on the new sheriff. Here’s the response I got.
Carlos Bustamantes job title is Administrative Manager III.
Mr. Bustamantes alleged comments at Tuesdays Board Meeting were made in his capacity as a Santa Ana Councilmember and private citizen.
Please reference the County’s Equal Employment Opportunity policies and procedures. Thank you.
Kind Regards,
Brooke De Baca
Community/Media Relations
County Executive’s Office
Darn that free speech thing, huh?
Jubal, are you seriously saying that if it’s a joke then it isn’t harassment? It’s not hostile?
Is that an APPROPRIATE joke?
It makes me very angry to hear that sexist comment. Although perhaps you’d dismiss my anger, because I’m a woman, and you never know if it’s just PMS, right?
Jubal,
Nice to know you thought the “joke” was funny.
Carlos Bustamante had the opportunity to approach you and Christain and make his “off color joke” because he was there for the Budget Hearings. He was not at the Hall of Administration because he is an elected official. He was there because he oversees the budget manager for OC Public Works.
If the comment had been made by the Director of Administration for a different department by an executive manager who was not also an elected official, the comment would still be inappropriate coming from a county manager, who was there on county time.
The fact that the board had taken a short recess is of no consequence. If Acting-Sheriff Anderson had made such a comment in the same setting, he would justifiably be held accountable for his comments. For the record, In my personal opinion, Chief Anderson has too much common sense and integrity to make such a joke, much less think it was funny.
If Santa Ana School Board Trustee Rob Richardson, who is also a Assistant CEO, had made this comment he would be called on the carpet for it. There is no difference in the level of inappropriate conduct Bustamante’s comments represent, whether they were made by him or the Assistant CEO.
And Jubal, the fact that a senior manager made these comments to reporters and those comments have been published publicly, serves to establish a hostile work environment for women working under his supervision. Failure by Mr. Mauk to take appropriate action to repudiate such conduct only serves to make a mockery of county policy on the matter of harassment and hostile work environments.
If the guy had any sense, he wouldn’t of denied it particulary since Jubal just corroborated the LA Times reporter. Not that anyone believed him anyway. He should step to the plate before the Terminator find out.
What’s next Matt; ethic jokes?
The joke is inappropriate in a professional setting. If you have ever worked at a big company before and something like this had gone on, you’d be behind doors in HR explaining yourself while someone is cleaning out your desk for you.
This whole episoded reminds me that Republicans speak one way to each other and then another way to everyone else.
You have four daughters Matt and yet you found this joke funny. Nice.
The only thing more despicable than Carlos comment was Janet’s vote.
Allright he was trying to be funny, and allright he thinks that Hutchens’ gender was a deciding factor. It’s just the way he equates being a woman with T&%$ (can I say that here?) that’s so obnoxious.
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(No Vern — you can’t say that here/Dan)
I personally could care less that Carlos said a lame joke–it’s his right to be as crass as he wants to. The “tipping point” (to use Jubal’s ever-increasing use of hinky jargon) for me is Carlos denying it. Cowardly. By the way, Jubal, it never ceases to amaze how you provide cover for some of this county’s most despicable characters.
John Palacio for Santa Ana City Council!!!!!!!!!!!
Try to think of this from the point of view of women working in his department…They now know that he thinks it’s funny to minimize a woman’s talents and abilities and repackage her as a sexual object.
It’s all fine and good for all you guys to think it’s no big deal (meaning those of you who have brushed off the comments)…but do you have any idea what a woman feels who has to work with someone whose attitude is that a talented, qualified woman is nothing more than her body parts?
If someone had “sized” you up (or down) in public, you might think differently. Women have put up with kind of high school locker room behavior for far too long. Enough is enough.
Hey Jubal,
Carlos said in the La Times he didn’t make the comment. So did he or didn’t he. LOL! Even Carlos’ friends can’t cover for him right.
Hey Sean Mill,
I’m glad Janet didn’t vote for Walters. Crime is up in Santa Ana so is gang activity and they didn’t want her help.
Chris:
It was a break in the hearing. Have you never done anything political on a work break?
For a guy who got put through the ringer with that computer seizure, you’re awfully ready to string a noose around Carlos’ neck based on a little information.
To the rest of the PC Speech Police:
Chill. Out.
I asked my wife what she thought of it. it didn’t bother her. I asked my 20-year old what she thought of it. She didn’t think it was funny, but she didn’t think it was offensive either. She saw exactly what it was: using a joke to make a point.
By the way, Jubal, it never ceases to amaze how you provide cover for some of this county’s most despicable characters.
Do you buy outrage by the gallon, Gustavo?
Let’s see: I confirmed what Christian Berthelsen wrote. That’s a strange way to provide cover, ain’t it?
One last thing: to hear this preening and preaching after the way I have heard some of the commenters here using the sexual identity of a person they dislike in order to put that person down…
Like I said: put down your stones and walk away.
**I asked my wife what she thought of it. it didn’t bother her. I asked my 20-year old what she thought of it. She didn’t think it was funny, but she didn’t think it was offensive either.**
So you’re the only member of your family that thought it was funny.
Seems to me Carlos is the kind of guy who would put a woman on a pedestal just to look up her dress. He should apologize for the joke and apologize for lying that he never said it.
One last thing: to hear this preening and preaching after the way I have heard some of the commenters here using the sexual identity of a person they dislike in order to put that person down…
Like I said: put down your stones and walk away.
?????
where did this come from?
Like I said: put down your stones and walk away.
?????
where did this come from?
It is biblical Dan. Bustamante is the adulterous woman, you are the vengeful moralistic crowd, and Jubal is Jesus.
So you’re the only member of your family that thought it was funny.
Did I say that?
And is this outrage reaching such a level of absurdity that you’re scrutinizing the varying sense of humor within my household?
Seems to me Carlos is the kind of guy who would put a woman on a pedestal just to look up her dress.
But it’s OK for you to say something like that, Mr. Outraged?
It’s getting hard to keep with the double standards floating around here.
where did this come from?
That last comment wasn’t aimed at you, Dan.
Actually, Vern, I think you’d have to be Jesus. I don’t think I have God-like omniscience.
Actually, you did Matt. You wife said it didn’t bother her and your 20 year old didn’t think it was funny.
…and what women say to the men in their lives is often very different than how they would feel and say if it was their boss making the comment…
Btw guys, wish there were more women weighing in on this subject. It feels a little like Artemesia Gentileschi”s “Susannah and the Elders” painting. Of course, if you’re brave enough, go take a look at some of this artist’s other works.
This was a woman who was working in a very male dominated art world. She was also the first woman in modern history to win a lawsuit against a man for rape and sexual harassment…her works show exactly how she felt about the whispers and jokes men made about a woman being among their peers.
You’d have to do some reading about her to understand her reasons for creating the works she did…but I’d ask you all to consider how even a joke diminishes the equality of a woman in the workplace.
No, Dan: you’re inferring something that isn’t there.
My wife said it didn’t bother her. She didn’t say she didn’t think it was funny.
As for my daughter’s reaction: let me put it this way: if you made what you thought was a funny remark and no one laughed, does that mean your remark was offensive/inappropriate? Or maybe it just wasn’t funny? Or maybe the listener had different sense of humor?
Jubal/Matt,
But what about your buddy Carlos lying to the Times about his comments? Are you ok with him lying to the press?
I would have been ok with a “no comment”, or that was a personal remark made to a political friend. Buy not an outright lie!
Carlos’ role in the County does hold him to a different standard than a blogger or observer at the meeting. I would expect Mauk to deal with this internally when he gets back from vacation, thats his style.
Oh and I shared the comments with several women and they found no humor and in fact were disgusted by them.
Dan –
First of all, Matt said:
One last thing: to hear this preening and preaching after the way I have heard some of the commenters here using the sexual identity of a person they dislike in order to put that person down….
I think you know who he’s talking about and I’m right here. Matt has never said a word to anyone about my sex change, good or bad, which is precisely the way I like it. I try my best to downplay it even though in this case it provides me a perspective here that I doubt anyone else in your audience can claim.
That said, I did not find Carlos’ comments nor Matt’s post offensive. Off-color humor is just that and everyone’s blowing this way out of proportion, especially considering that Carlos used the questionable joke out of apparent frustration (he and Miguel Pulido fought hard for Walters), not hate or harassment as some have claimed. That said, the joke’s on Carlos because while he got to be ‘funny’ (he wasn’t), Hutchens got the job and I’m pretty sure she’s tough enough to handle an adolescent like him or the Supes wouldn’t have selected her.
Notice she hasn’t said a word on the subject because it’s really below her to respond. In fact, I wasn’t going to either, but I think some people here really need to get some perspective.
SMS
I’m betting that it would take Sheriff Sandra Hutchens .005 seconds to put Carlos AND his whimpy brother down for KOs.
Bustamante is not ready for primetime. His ti**y joke was sophomoric and designed to insult. He deserves public ridicule.
The hilarious punch line deconstructed?
Hutchen’s was only hired because of her gender.
What a laugh riot.
That would never be said of a man.
No, but I buy my ink by the barrel.
Who said I was outraged? Again, I didn’t think Bustamante making the joke was the offensive part–it’s his denial that’s stupid. It doesn’t anger me–it makes me laugh. And you are trying to provide cover by making it seem that because you and some of the females in your household don’t think it’s a big deal, that neither should anyone else, and therefore us that pile on him are wrong and subject to name-calling. “Stone throwers”? “PC Speech Police”? But I thought you were so proper that you didn’t engage in name-calling?
BTW, my comment above is directed at Jubal.
Gustavo –
You have more first-hand knowledge of this than I. Is there any evidence of the comment other than the reporter’s word? If not, then he is innocent until proven guilty, no?
SMS
****One last thing: to hear this preening and preaching after the way I have heard some of the commenters here using the sexual identity of a person they dislike in order to put that person down…. ****
In comments on OJ; I don’t recall seeing anything here on this site.
As to the joke, it looks like we’re going to nuance it to death. Carlos, in his position with the county, said something inappropriate that he needs to apologize for and he needs to apoogize for lying about a statement he made that you confirmed.
Sarah —
**I think you know who he’s talking about and I’m right here. Matt has never said a word to anyone about my sex change, good or bad, which is precisely the way I like it. I try my best to downplay it even though in this case it provides me a perspective here that I doubt anyone else in your audience can claim.**
I know who he’s talking about, but I don’t think there have been comments on THIS blog in regards to your sexually. On OJ, yes, I saw quite a few of them. And you do not downplay anything about your life as most of your posts and your comments are all about you.
Ya Know, there just ain’t no spin about it folks. If he said it in front of a female who he didn’t know, he’s stupid. If he said it in front of a female he knew to be a female reporter for the La Times, then he is really stupid. If he then denies it, he is entitled to the Darwin award. There is nothing at all “funny ” about this sophmoric “humor” comming from some guy who professes to be a government official.
Yikes!
Last I checked the LATimes reporter male. The problem is that 1) he made his joke in the lobby of the hall of Administration where a whole bunch of people were milling about. 2) His comment was in front of a reporter and subsequently published. Given that, the comment has been made in front of every female and male employee of OC Public Works who happened to read the article or follow-up blog posts.
Jubal,
All of this jumping through hoops to defend an inappropriate comment made by an executive level public employee while he was being paid to do the public business? You’re kidding me right?
The claim that Mr. Bustamante was some how not in the Hall of Administration in his capacity as Director of Administration for OC Public Works is simply absurd. He was there for the budget hearings for heavens sake.
Based upon your rationale, if he were to make such a joke in the break room while eating lunch with his coworkers that would be okay. Again, you’re kidding me right?
I bet Sandra could care less about the commet.
Gustavo is right. I think it’s fine that Carlos said it because it helps define him accurately as a buffoon and a coward.
I side with Jubal on this one. Bustamente made a joke that reflects his evaluation of the situation. Whether it’s funny really depends on who you are and where you stand on the appointment of Hutchens, and is neither here nor there.
Bustamente is not Hutchens’ boss. The joke is not within earshot of any of his employees, and is not targeting his employees. If it harms anyone, it harms him.
BTW, I also side with Gustavo. Denying ever saying it is so stupid.
Anyway, like I’ve always said – local politics is so much fun!
Again, mostly comments by men about the feelings of women. What does it take for you all to pay attention? The women I read the comment to were very offended, as was I.
He said it to a reporter — supremely stupid, poor judgement. It leads me to believe that the comments betray a deeper attitude problem on his part. You may be able to dismis it, but the damage is done.
What is relevent is that Republicans have a way of speaking to each other that ocassionally gets exposed; the Chuck DeVore “effing” with Democrats comment he made in front of Frank Mickadeit comes to mind; as does Jon Fleischman’s comment on Ted Kennedy as a denier of freedom and liberty to every American after Jill Buck’s heartfelt tribute to the senior Senator from Massachusetts.
This comment by Carlos to Matt is one of those times.
The more distrubing portion is the outright lie Carlos told in denying he ever said it in the first place. But since it wasn’t under oath, it will pass muster as liberal media bias with the right wing.
My suggestion is that BUST-amante make amends by coming to the next few council meetings wearing a huge water bra and a nice beehive wig. For penance you understand. And to see what it’s like to be a lady. Where is the photoshop, people? Must I learn that program?
The problem is that 1) he made his joke in the lobby of the hall of Administration where a whole bunch of people were milling about.
Chris,
There weren’t a “whole bunch of people” milling around. There were a few people in the lobby, and nobody within earshot. Everyone was outside with Hutchens, her supporters and the media.
Doesn’t matter Matt. He made his comment to reporters while on the job. Those comments were printed in the newspaper.
Maybe you don’t understand. A manager, particularly an executive manager in the county is required to consider the appropriateness of their comments no matter where they are made when they are serving in their management capacity. An executive who is at a Board Meeting is on the job regardless of whether the board has called a recess. A comment made to media representatives during that time period is the same as a comment made on a lunch break. Simply put, the comment violates county policy and reflects poorly on the county.
Given Bustamante’s position as Director of Administration overseeing Human Resources, his joke, if allowed to pass without appropriate action to reject the comment by management, creates a hostile work environment because it inaction encourages such behavior as acceptable for a manager.
Odd thing to say nobody was within earshot, Jubal. Maybe you want to re-read what you write before clicking “submit comment”?
He should really hold in the harassment-type comments/jokes until he’s away from work, if he wants to keep his job.
All of this jumping through hoops to defend an inappropriate comment made by an executive level public employee while he was being paid to do the public business? You’re kidding me right?
I’m not defending the comment, so much as criticizing the PC nuclear over-reaction to it.
What bothers me is that Carlos denied making them, because he did. He can apologize for them or not, but to claim he didn’t say it isn’t honest.
And you are trying to provide cover by making it seem that because you and some of the females in your household don’t think it’s a big deal, that neither should anyone else, and therefore us that pile on him are wrong and subject to name-calling.
That’s not cover, Gustavo. That’s my opinion about the comment and the reaction from you and other commenters here.
Just like it is your opinion — conveyed as fact, and untethered from reality — that Carlos made the remark “to curry favor with the county’s good-ol’-boy GOP”
But that’s a convenient standard you’ve concocted: any Republican who disagrees with you on this subject is “covering for Carlos.”
Odd thing to say nobody was within earshot, Jubal.
I think my meaning was obvious, Christy. But to satisfy your hair-splitting, I’;; amend my statement: “nobody was within earshot except the two people Carlos was talking to.”
He should really hold in the harassment-type comments/jokes until he’s away from work, if he wants to keep his job.
You know, my 20-year old daughter — a very intelligent, accomplished, independent young woman — told me this morning that she was reading the comments this post. Her judgment off attitudes like yours: “Those people are crazy.”
Maybe someone ought to liberate her from her unconscious brainwashing by the Patriarchy and re-educate her in how a woman is supposed to react.
Gustavo – You have more first-hand knowledge of this than I.
SMS: Gustavo has no first hand knowledge of this. Three people do: me, Christian Berthelson and Carlos Bustamante.
Whether not he wants too apologize — which would be the political correct and expedient path — he ought to own up to it. To deny saying it is dishonest.
But I thought you were so proper that you didn’t engage in name-calling?
Different blog, different rules. if you think that’s name-calling, I suggest reading your Navel Gazing posts.
You know, my 20-year old daughter  a very intelligent, accomplished, independent young woman  told me this morning that she was reading the comments this post. Her judgment off attitudes like yours: “Those people are crazy.â€Â
Maybe someone ought to liberate her from her unconscious brainwashing by the Patriarchy and re-educate her in how a woman is supposed to react.
Jubal: Frankly, I can see how some people are offended and I can see how some people (including some women) are not. This is quite obviously one of those issues on which intelligent people of good will can disagree. However, I think your comment that “someone ought to liberate her” etc. is simply a cheap shot.
I don’t think it was a cheap shot, but sarcasm aimed at the attitude that there is only a single, correct response for women to that comment..
I agree with the rest of your comment. Women aren’t a monolith, and each individual is going to respond differently.
I know Sheriff Hutchens has heard MUCH worse in her law enforcement career and by now, is probably immensely bored by the claims of gender/affirmative-action/blah-blah-blah to justify her well-deserved success. What people may not be contemplating is that law enforcement people have a wonderful sense of humor.
@jubal:
“Different blog, different rules.”
How precious. So first, you try to portray OC Blog as above the fray of the county’s wild, profane blogosphere by not engaging in name-calling. Then, when I pointed out Scott Graves and you refer to 241 Toll Road opponents as hippies or mouse lovers (“uber-alles” or something?) some time ago, you made an excuse that the two of you were insulting issues, not people. Now, you say your decorum exists only on your blog? Weak, Matt. Weak. You’re slipping into Carlos territory there. I’ve never said I don’t name-call, so mentioning Navel Gazing adds nothing to this.
Actually, I don’t hear any other Republican covering for Carlos except you, so my comment applies just to you. And, yes: Carlos cracked his joke for an explicitly political purpose–read Jokes and their Relationship to the Unconscious, and you’ll see what I mean.
Finally, I don’t understand why you keep polling your family for the purposes of this discussion. Hugh should’ve taught you better logic than that!
At the end of the day the better candidate was selected sheriff. By any measure Hutchens was the superior pick over Walters. I applaud the Supes for picking a candidate far outside the OC GOP and “boys club” clubs.
So first, you try to portray OC Blog as above the fray of the county’s wild, profane blogosphere by not engaging in name-calling.
Same old straw man tactics, Gustavo. That’s your rationale for the rules at OC Blog, not ours.
Consider our distinctions weak, Gustavo. I really could care less coming from a guy who thinks calling Hugh Hewitt “Baby Hewie” is cutting discourse.
Actually, I don’t hear any other Republican covering for Carlos except you, so my comment applies just to you. And, yes: Carlos cracked his joke for an explicitly political purpose
Got it: if Gustavo says it is so, then it must be so! Thank you for the remote diagnosis, Dr. Arellano — a remarkable feat considering you weren’t there and only know what you read in the LA Times article.
Finally, I asked my wife and eldest daughter about their reaction because I was interested in their reaction. They’re smart, independent women, and I considered maybe they’d see it completely differently than me.
It’s not a question of logic, but keep up those Gustavo cracks!